Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 12, 2010
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:12 p.m. to study the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families (topic: implementation of the New Veterans Charter).
Senator Tommy Banks (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I will now call to order this meeting of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence.
To my immediate right is General Cox, our Library of Parliament analyst; Senator Wallin, the chair of our parent committee, the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence; Senator Nolin; Senator Manning, the deputy chair of this subcommittee; and Senator Day, who has previously been the chair of this subcommittee. To my left is the committee clerk, Kevin Pittman; Senator Meighen, who was for a long time the distinguished chair of this subcommittee; Senator Downe; and Senator Dallaire.
Senator Wallin has a motion to make.
Senator Wallin: I would like to move that the meetings of the Veterans Affairs Subcommittee terminate officially when the bells begin to ring.
The Chair: That is to say at 1:15.
Senator Wallin: Correct.
The Chair: Is there discussion on the motion? All in favour?
Senator Meighen: I do not know. I have not discussed this with Senator Wallin. I got notification, and I was here last week, and I think the objective is laudable. There are those of us who have to be in the chamber at 1:30 and those of us who can be a little later, depending on one's duties.
It does not solve any problems, let us say, when I was the chair. We probably dragged on a little late, but we have always found the time short. I would like to squeeze in as much time as possible. One has to balance leaving when witnesses are still giving evidence to staying. My own inclination is to explain to witnesses that some members have to leave. If we end at 1:20 or so, there is ample time to get to the chamber. That is my view.
Senator Day: I am not a voting member, but I appreciate you offering the comment. I have been thinking that the committee should investigate this, as well, as has been suggested. However, in the interim, I do not think there is any magic in 1:15; why not 1:20?
The Chair: The motion is when the bells start.
Senator Day: The bells ring at 1:15.
The Chair: Is there any further discussion?
Senator Dallaire: I am also not a voting member. However, from the meeting we had last week, I feel quite frustrated not only by the fact that we would stop at 1:15 but that we are starting at 12:15. I am not a perfect example today, having been late, but I can understand that our caucuses end at noon, the leaders speak and you do not want to miss that. However, we were working at one time with an hour and a half, and now we will down to an hour.
I would hope that you will vote to use as much of the time that is given to us as possible.
Senator Wallin: I would be totally in favour of us arriving on time and leaving no later than 1:20.
The Chair: The motion on the floor, however, is for 1:15.
Senator Wallin: I will amend my motion.
I move that our meetings start at 12 o'clock sharp and that they adjourn no later than 1:20.
The Chair: Are there any objections to the amendment to the motion? All those in favour of the motion? Opposed?
The motion is carried. The meeting will conclude at 1:20, by that clock.
Colleagues, we have with us today for a very short time, unfortunately, four witnesses who are attendant upon the question we are addressing, which has to do with assessing the efficacy of the New Veterans Charter. We have Major Jacques Lasalle, Officer Commanding of the Joint Personnel Support Unit (JPSU), Quebec Region. Thank you for being with us. We also have Master Corporal Jody Mitic, Outreach Coordinator, National Defence Headquarters, DCSM; Corporal Martin Renaud, 3rd Battalion, Royal 22nd Regiment. We are glad that you are here. As an individual, we have retired Master Corporal Paul Franklin. Do any of you have anything to say before we begin the questions?
[Translation]
Major Jacques Lasalle, Officer Commanding of the Joint Personnel Support Unit (JPSU), National Defence: Mr. Chair, thank you for the privilege of appearing before this committee. I hope to be able to provide adequate answers to your questions.
[English]
Master Corporal (Retired) Paul Franklin, as an individual: I have an opening statement, if I may.
In January 2006, I lost both legs to a suicide bombing attack in the city of Kandahar. I recently retired in November 2009, after severing as a wounded soldier for three years with just over 10 years in the Canadian Forces, CF. Due the timing of my injury, I was given the offer of falling under the old Veterans Affairs Canada, VAC, pension disability system or the New Veterans Charter. Some simple math quickly made me realize it was in my best interests to ask for the monthly pension than the lump-sum payout. I have talked to many wounded and injured soldiers here in Canada, the U.S., the U.K. and even Australia. The CF medical system has shown itself to be a quick-reacting beast in the time of war. To the soldiers, the opposite is true of the VAC system.
The main complaints I hear are that the VAC system is broken and unwilling to listen to the true cost issues or communication failures. A soldier recently had shrapnel in his eye and was paid $30,000 for his past and future pain and suffering. He worries of a medical reoccurrence in his injury and knows that he will have a difficult time proving his disability is getting worse. He knew this when he signed up for a lump-sum payment.
A current amputee, who lost his other leg — the other one destroyed, along with his arm — in a long-term disability situation will only be paid out the maximum amount. Many soldiers do not see the benefit of achieving the maximum amount of $250,000. They see that VAC is not paying for the other injuries. They worry for their future and feel that being paid out for an injury is not in their long-term best interests or that of their families.
The concern is that paying money to physically and psychologically injured CF members so recently after an incident may lead to misuse or loss of money due to negligence, family concerns or other reasons. A payout of only $250,000 will never equal the same amount on a monthly pension plan. In today's economy, that maximum amount may allow the soldier to make a down payment on a house or possibly buy a car. This money should be of amount sufficient that if a soldier is 100 per cent disabled, they will be taken care of by the system for life. This is not a return-to-work program; this is for front-line soldiers who fight for no other reason than that Canada has asked us.
If a young private has a spinal cord injury and is declared 100 per cent disabled and a 20-year veteran captain has the same injury, they both receive 75 per cent of their pay upon retirement. Canadian Forces members I have talked to all express outrage that the private's injuries are not valued the same. They ask why the captain's injury is worth more than theirs. Equality for all soldiers, sailors and air personnel is all they ask for. If we are to stick to a payout system, then make the payment equal to all other plans and in an amount to ensure quality of life for all.
The Chair: Did you say that because of your situation and the accidents of time and geography, you had your choice between the old and new systems? You compared the two systems and decided it was in your best interest to take the old system absent the one-time payment?
Corporal Franklin: I simply did the math. I make $4,200 per month tax-free, which works out to approximately $75,000 per year. That total of $75,000 per year for five years is already more than the $250,000 payout. If I live for five years following my injury, I am already ahead financially.
The Chair: Does anyone else wish to make a statement?
Master Corporal Jody Mitic, Outreach Coordinator, National Defence Headquarters, DCSM, National Defence: This is not for myself. When informed that we had been invited to appear, I asked all the other injured veterans I know if anyone wanted to say anything. I will read one response.
Senator Meighen: Are any of those responses available to the committee?
Master Corporal Mitic: I can leave a copy if you wish, senator.
I will not say the soldier's name, although I am sure he would not mind if I did. However, I will double-check with him. He is a 30-year veteran of the forces who was about to retire. He decided to go for one last hurrah and ended up losing both legs above the knee similar to Master Corporal Franklin, along with a few other injuries.
The letter is addressed to "Karen and fellas." Karen is Warrant Officer Karen McCoy of the air force who lost a leg to cancer but is now able to do anything she wishes under the universality of service. The letter expresses his emotion. I will edit it slightly due to the circumstances. It states:
I don't even know where to start in terms of stating my many dissatisfactions with the New Veterans Charter. First and foremost is the cessation of the Disability Pension in favour of the Lump-Sum Payment. The Lump Sum, stated to be compensation for "pain and suffering" (vice our physical injuries) is an utter joke. Moreover, it is an abject insult. $250 K as life-time compensation for losing both legs above the knee? Are you kidding me?!?! I am deeply insulted and offended. Under the old Charter, Paul tells me that he receives $4,700 tax-free per month. In other words, $50K per year for the rest of his life. Doing the math, the lump-sum max payment that I received ($250K) works out to 5 years of Paul's LIFETIME Medical Pension. No clawback of any military pension for Paul, unlike the new system where the "Earnings Loss Benefit" includes the income from military pension that you paid into for 25 (or however many) years. In other words, your very expensive military pension is now held against you in terms of annual earnings. Even better, after all is said and done and VAC has used your military pension against you (not the case under the old system), you only qualify for assured annual earnings equal to 75 per cent of your pre-release wage. Can somebody please tell me why a veteran who has sacrificed his/her limbs and associated quality of life in the interests of our nation be subjected to a 25 per cent reduction in their annual income simply because they were disabled on combat duty? This "New Veterans Charter" clause is absolutely criminal. You lose limbs and/or mental capacity that precludes you from finding rewarding civilian employment after your rehab, and what happens? SISIP (not even VAC!) tops you up to 75 per cent of your military wage while clawing back all of your other income — including the military pension that you paid into for your entire career. Cheapskate . . . .
I could go on and on about the impact of the NVC, but that would take pages to lay out. Just imagine that you are a Reserve Force Cpl missing 3 limbs. There are zero policies to assist you with purchasing (or more likely building) suitable barrier-free housing for you and your family. Try carrying two mortgages on a Cpl's salary. But wait. . . it gets even better. Let's say you can't find meaningful/rewarding work because of your service-related disability. Ahh — SISIP to the rescue with the Earnings Loss Benefit that guarantees you 75 per cent of your Cpl's pay but claws back all your hard-earned, outside income as part of that 75 per cent. Thanks hero of Canada — we just put you and your family in the Welfare line-up. And even better, you still can't afford to build a wheelchair-friendly home for you and your family, so you have been living in a hotel for over a year looking for a charity to assist you with your special-needs home construction. The "system" will pay for renovations to your existing home — assuming you own one suitable for alteration. If not, you are SOL because there is no similar financial assistance for new barrier-free home construction which is directly necessitated/attributable to your service-related disability. Ahhh. . . thanks so much . . . Canada. Much appreciated.
As I said, there is much more "joy" to be found in the myriad betrayals inherent to the NVC. I could write for days, but the sense of having been stabbed in the back by the very nation I have served tends to back up in my throat and make me sick. I had best quit while I am still ahead.
There is plenty that needs to be said about the NVC, and none of it is good. The NVC is nothing more than a Federal cost-cutting effort thinly disguised as a glorified "Return to Work" programme for transition to civilian life. The NVC removes the long-term financial security formerly provided to our disabled soldiers by cancelling the medical pension in favour of the horribly insulting low-ball lump-sum payment. The Brits pay up to $3,000,000 (150K pounds sterling) for their 100 per cent disability cases. I would not trade my legs for $30,000,000, but that is not the point. Wisely employed, $3,000,000 would build a barrier-free home and insure comfortable (but not extravagant) retirement. Instead, in Canada under the NVC, we pay the equivalent of hospital parking with our . . . $250K maximum payout. Supposed compensation for the non-economic aspects of your life-altering wounds (such as pain and suffering). Yeah, right. $250K as compensation for what my family has endured? $250K as compensation for the phantom limb pain that I endure 3 nights per week?? $250K for the loss of quality of life that I have endured and will continue to experience with my family for the rest of my life??? Yeah, sure.
That is the end of his email. His is only one of many. From my point of view, I have not had much experience with the new charter as I am still a serving member. The experience I have had has not been terrible, but it has not been encouraging.
If serving members in the forces, especially in the combat arms, had been asked prior to this change, I think we would have said "no way" to lump-sum payments for injuries. It is not about the money; it is about security. We have several lifetime military members here today. We do not choose this life for the money. If I was concerned about the money, when I received my advance sniper training, I would have quit and gone to Blackwater where I could have earned upwards of $250,000 per year to train and fight for them in Iraq. I did not choose this career to make money. I took a cut in pay when I joined the regular forces in 1997. I worked for Ford, and my pay was cut by two thirds when I became a private. We do this work for security at the end of our days and to know that while we serve, we provide security to the country.
I simply wanted the committee to understand the tone of what many injured veterans are expressing.
The Chair: Would you say that what you read to us is typical of the responses you received to that question?
Master Corporal Mitic: Absolutely. I want to reiterate that it is not about money, so to speak. It is about when I was handed my cheque in 2007, and I said to my Veterans Affairs Canada representative, "Hang on, when the market tanks, are you going to write me a new cheque?" She said it will never tank, come on.
Less than a year later, when it tanked and I lost over $60,000 in the market, I wondered where all that money went. I needed to buy a new car and wanted to move in with my common-law wife, who was pregnant with my daughter at the time, but I have all this money that I cannot access.
When you ask for assistance, you run into barriers at different levels in different departments. It is a feeling of helplessness basically at the time.
The Chair: Corporal Renaud, would you like to make an opening statement?
[Translation]
Cpl. Renaud: I am probably repeating what was already said by the two heroes next to me. My story has been told before. I was injured when I was 19 years old. Today, at 22, I am a lower limb amputee, I have metal rods in my back and have lost all sensation.
I try not to think about the future because, for now, I am still receiving my salary. Instead, I try to focus on getting fit. Every day is a struggle to survive. But I love life and, as long as I live, I will not doubt my accomplishments in the field because I did it all for honour. I will never regret going to Afghanistan.
However, if in one or two years' time my financial security is taken away, I could become homeless, and I do not want that to happen. All this to say that we have to keep enduring, but at what price? I was awarded $250,000 at the age of 19, but if I live to be 60 or even 80, not even the best financial planner will help me make that money last. How does a person make $250,000 work and grow so that he has enough to live on until 80 years of age?
I do not know if I will still be able to walk in twenty years or if I will have to use a wheelchair, but for now, I am strong. I just hope that things will change.
[English]
The Chair: We all hope you will live much longer than 60 years.
Senator Manning: Thank you, gentlemen, for your service to our country and for your presence here today. To be honest with you, your opening remarks, as we would say in my home of Newfoundland and Labrador, have stunned me somewhat.
Master Corporal Franklin, you said in your opening remarks that you had an option of the old versus the new, and you explained the monthly pension versus the lump sum. In the case of your colleague, Corporal Renaud, when you were injured, was there an option at the time or did you have to take the lump sum?
Master Corporal Franklin: I was injured in January 2006. The surgeries brought me up to March. The New Veterans Charter opened up on April 1, 2006. That is why I am pretty sure that no one else was offered that option.
Master Corporal Mitic: After that date, there was old and new. I suppose they offered Master Corporal Franklin the option to sort of ease into it, but we were not given options.
Master Corporal Franklin: I can still participate in many of the New Veterans Charter programs; that is not withheld from me.
Senator Manning: Financially, you are in a better situation. With the lump-sum payment, are there other benefits? We have heard from previous witnesses that other things are offered. I am just wondering from a financial standpoint. I know about the employment assistance and so forth. However, from a financial perspective — your medical bills and whatever — were you offered or did you received anything else over and above that lump-sum payment?
Master Corporal Franklin: VAC will tell you they have a permanent impairment allowance, which sounds good, but the payments range between $536 and $1,609 a month. Again, we are dealing at welfare levels. My mortgage is $1,000 a month, so $1,600 will do nothing for me.
Master Corporal Mitic: There are other things. The Veterans Independence Program, VIP, cuts your lawn and shovels snow; that is nice. We receive a small allowance for clothing alterations if I require it. I think I receive $110 per month because I have to buy different types of pants now. I did not mention it, but I lost both feet basically halfway to my knees. I am on both prosthetics as well. I need zippers in some pants, and I had to change my wardrobe slightly, so that is there for you.
In the short term, it does not seem as though much is available. In the long term, my personal experience has been somewhat limited; but we have guys that have moved on, and of those that I have talked to none of them is satisfied.
There might be other allowances, such as the ones Master Corporal Franklin just mentioned and a few others, but you want to maintain some dignity as a man, as a soldier and a warrior. You do not want to go back and ask for your allowance every time you want to do something.
In my case — and Master Corporal Franklin and I were speaking about this briefly before we started — anything I do now is adaptive. Adaptive sports, adaptive living is more expensive by definition. For me to just ride my mountain bike — which I was good at before, I won races — I have not done that yet. Every time I try, something new needs to be changed — new pedals, new handlebars, et cetera — and all that costs money, which is coming out of my pocket at the moment. I do it because I want to ride my mountain bike. However, if I had money available, I would go and change the bike. It would not be a discussion; I would not have to think about it, I would just do it.
Now I have a daughter, and because we needed more square footage, we had to buy a house that is more expensive than we could afford so that we could renovate it. Therefore, we are house poor. You take things in moderation.
The right prosthetics are available, but that is provided by the forces only as long as I am serving. Many of us are trying to stay in to prolong having to deal with Veterans Affairs Canada because everyone I talk to says that they are difficult to deal with.
I do not understand where that attitude comes from. You are treated as though you are trying to rip them off and put one over on them 100 per cent of the time. I am sure a few guys do it — that is part of being human — but most of us are just trying to live our lives in dignity. That is all. We do not want to always feel as though we have to go back and ask for our allowance and prove that we deserve the benefits for which we are asking, which is how it feels.
Senator Manning: On that question — and I was not sure if I heard you correctly, it may have been Master Corporal Franklin — with the renovation of your homes to help with your disability, did someone say that it was to renovate older homes or that they would not provide assistance to renovate newer homes?
Master Corporal Franklin: That was in the email.
Master Corporal Mitic: Part of that is that National Defence, DND, has decided they will provide this for us as long as we are still serving. That system is being flushed out. My case was recently approved after two years of trying, but they used the VAC model. Also, they use workmen's compensation and all that to try to figure things out because the forces have not done it before, which is okay.
One of the rules is that they will not increase the square footage of a home. They are afraid of making people rich by adding 100 square feet to the house or something. I do not know what the issue is. That causes a conundrum for the family of a guy who is a full quadraplegic with zero movement below his chin. The best option for him and his family is to build an addition to the house. For a long time, they could not do that because it is against the rules, for whatever reason. His family's quality of life suffers until this problem is solved. I do not know the whole story, so I will not say much more, but, apparently, they are moving on.
You have to live like that every day. For the last two years, I have crawled around on my hands and knees trying to get around the house with my daughter because I will not wait for someone to make a decision to live my life. These issues blur the lines between the charter, DND and Treasury Board. I do not want to get too much into that. When they use the VAC model, and this is the result, it makes me wonder what I will have to deal with until the end of my days.
Senator Manning: I have many questions, but I will ask only one more to give someone else an opportunity. You receive assistance because you are still serving. You touched on the fact that you are trying to stay in the forces because of what is available to you versus leaving and what you would receive.
Master Corporal Mitic: Are you asking what I would receive if I got out?
Senator Manning: Yes, as compared to what you receive now.
Master Corporal Mitic: The Canadian Forces has several programs that allow you to transition to civilian life if you are medically released, which I am planning to take advantage of. I have not delved into what is available through VAC because I have been choosing my battles. Recently, the house was done, which is good because if it had not been done, I do not know if I could have come here today. I know programs are available, but I have not looked into all of them. I have not heard anyone yet with a good experience to tell.
Master Corporal Franklin: If I may, I stayed for three years as a wounded soldier to ensure that all the parts and pieces of my future life would be intact. I knew that DND would cover me. They would buy the wheelchairs and the prosthetics and modify the house. I knew that DND would always be there for me. Many soldiers tend to say that they are doing great because they are still at work. In reality, they do not want a 25 per cent pay cut, and they want to ensure that they get all their stuff and have an employer that completely understands their state of mind and their well-being. That is unheard of previously.
We have managed to get this great piece where if you have a psychological or physical wound, you can stay in for as long as you want. Thankfully, General Hillier said that in 2007. Everyone is following through with that. Of course, when they do that, suddenly there are needs. How do you make a double amputee fit? That means running legs and swimming legs and all this other stuff that is completely new to the CF. To their credit, they have adopted a lot of nice stuff, which has dragged back into the reality of maintaining the stuff that we get. They are shocked at the level of stuff we are getting now compared to just six years ago.
The Chair: Therefore, it is better now.
Master Corporal Franklin: To stay in uniform in the forces, is better, without a doubt.
Senator Downe: I thank the witnesses not only for their attendance but for their service. Their testimony is certainly very interesting and, at the same time, very disturbing.
When this Senate committee originally reviewed the New Veterans Charter five years ago, we asked whether it was a cost-saving exercise of the government. Unlike the United States, we do not have many veterans with their medals begging on the streets. We have avoided that in Canada, to a large degree, because of the ongoing assistance. We asked whether this program would eventually lead to that. We are still trying to find out if it is a cost-saving exercise. It is difficult to get answers as to what the costs would have been and what the costs are. In your example of your personal case, you had the option and quickly realized which was better for you. In effect, you cost the government more money, where five years later it would have been much cheaper for them.
Master Corporal Franklin: Definitely.
Senator Downe: I am intrigued as well by some information that we discovered: Veterans Affairs Canada offers financial counselling up to $500 for veterans who receive the lump sum; and only 1 per cent of eligible people have used that counselling. We are concerned about what happens when the money is gone and about people who join as privates and end up receiving 75 per cent of a private's salary for the rest of their life. No one joins to be a private. They all want to end up the same as my general friend sitting to my left today. Someone can be pegged at that level through no fault of his or her own.
VAC tells us they have a full suite of programs available. What works and what does not work?
Master Corporal Franklin: If I may say something about the 75 per cent, they say that it is for life, but it is only up to age 65, at which point it is cancelled and you go on CPP, which is $900 a month. That is your new veterans charter piece, right? Again, if you are a private, you get 75 per cent to 65, but after that, you are screwed until you die. You live at that level.
There are many good return-to-work programs. The major is involved with much of that. They have the Integrated Personnel Support Centres, IPSCs, all the new units, and the facility to phone up your VAC counsellor and get responses pretty quickly. That is all good stuff, but it should have been done years ago. We congratulate them for things that should have happened in World War II. I am not fond of saying, yea, for the charter or, yea, for VAC because those things should have been done under Senator Dallaire and under everyone else. The occupational stress injury part is nice, but it should have been done earlier.
The main focus of the people to whom I have spoken is their worry about their future, whether it is the monthly payments or the lump-sum payment. For example, what happens if I get an infection in my leg and it gets worse? Am I guaranteed that I will get help? All those guarantees, we do not get. They might be in the 480 pages of the New Veterans Charter, but who will read it? All the glossy pamphlets never say that.
Knowing that we were coming here today, VAC gave us criticism fact sheets. I will give you copies of these as well. It has questions that they know we will ask and answers to those questions. It is always nice to have a pre-answered question, so I do not have to ask the question. It is always quite nice. This document answers some of the questions about what the charter does, but there are some unanswered questions about issues into the future.
For me to do a rehabilitation program after I retire sounds good on paper, but I am already healthy. I am as good as I will ever be, so does this mean a vocational piece? Well, I have a job doing speeches and other stuff. However, that is not recognized, so they keep phoning me up and asking why I am not taking part in the rehab program because they want me to go back to work. They are dealing with a 100 per cent disabled guy. What type of work can a double amputee do? There is a point where 100 per cent disabled truly means 100 per cent disabled, physically and psychologically. Some guys will never go back to work, and we have to admit it and help them. They are the ones who are most at risk of hanging out on the streets or becoming potential suicides. They are the ones we have to protect.
Senator Meighen: Can someone explain to me the basis upon which the monthly payment was calculated under the old system of disability payments? Was it based on the salary or the severity of the wounds, or was it a combination of the two?
Master Corporal Mitic: It was based on the severity of the wound in the form of a percentage. Master Corporal Franklin was qualified for 100 per cent because he lost both legs.
Senator Meighen: Does "100 per cent" mean "the maximum payable per month"?
Master Corporal Mitic: Yes. Technically, it is 54 per cent per leg, which means that I am 108 per cent, but they only pay up to 100 per cent, obviously. I do not know what they originally based it on.
Master Corporal Franklin: I do not know either. Senator Dallaire might know more about that than us.
Senator Dallaire: The original amount was based on the salary of a private, and it was increased over the years concurrently with the salary of a private. As an example, if it is $4,700 now, you have a family with children, so that gives you more money.
Master Corporal Franklin: Yes, the spouse and the family increase it.
Senator Dallaire: The basic number is about $2,000. That, in itself, was not sufficient, although it is tax-free. You can maybe say you double it, but you really do not because at that salary scale you only get 25 per cent more.
Master Corporal Franklin: Exactly.
Senator Dallaire: That was the old scale. The 75 per cent at the rank level was something that was introduced, but it was not part of the work that was done previously to bringing in the New Veterans Charter. The previous work was that it would be an amount of money that would permit the individual to be able to live at a reasonable level. We were talking more about at the rank between sergeant and warrant officer, which is close to lieutenant or captain level. It came out as that, and that is part of the process at which we must take a serious look.
Senator Downe: The problem, of course, is Corporal Renaud, who spoke earlier, was injured at age 19. At age 40, what rank would he have had?
Master Corporal Franklin: He probably would have been a chief.
Senator Downe: Exactly. That is the unfairness of it.
I am glad to hear that the attitude of DND appears to be much better, and they are cooperating more. I noticed, in another area we are concerned about, that members of the Canadian Forces who are released or discharged from service for medical reasons have priority appointment status in the public service of Canada.
I just received information yesterday from the president of the Public Service Commission of Canada who indicated, in the years 2007-08, that 245 former Canadian Forces and Royal Canadian Mounted Police, RCMP, members were qualified and, of those, 177 were appointed to positions of public service, 67 were not, and one left. The disturbing and disappointing part — and this is another issue we have been talking about for some time — is 70 per cent of those people — 69 per cent — were hired by one department, which was National Defence.
We do not have government-wide buy-in or participation in this. The others are scattered throughout the government. That is a problem, chair. This committee should talk to maybe the clerk of the Privy Council at some point. If the participation rate was a third of what DND was doing, all 245 people would have been hired, in my opinion. That is a comment, not a question.
The Chair: Provided they were qualified.
Senator Downe: Of course, yes. They have to be qualified. That is a very good point, that they meet the qualifications for the positions available. These people had met those, and unfortunately 67 had not been hired.
Senator Dallaire: There is, however, no program to make them qualified. Therefore, when they introduced that, if you did not have any experience in finding a job in the government, no instrument existed at the time to help you write the exam or even know about the jobs and process. DND has, in its personnel selection and so on, introduced assistance on how to be qualified and what the qualifications are.
The Chair: We certainly intend to pursue the question of that program in the public service.
Senator Downe: Could you circulate that, then, to the committee members?
The Chair: We shall.
[Translation]
Maj. Lasalle: As a personnel selection officer, I can confirm that staffing through the employment priority system for the injured is difficult, and the success rate is very low.
As Senator Dallaire mentioned, we do not offer training programs for careers that are specific to the public service. Improvements could be made in that area to help us reassign our people. Lump-sum payments and disability pensions are all fine and well, but our injured soldiers also need dignifying jobs.
As Officer Commanding of the Quebec region's injured soldiers, I am already familiar with all the issues that were brought up by today's witnesses. The most frustrating issue is certainly that of lump sums being paid out instead of disability pensions. Everybody will agree with the fact that such minimal lump sums will not make it possible for a 22 year old to live until an advanced age. This is not the only frustrating element veterans deal with, and I would like to mention a few other things that have been brought to our attention.
The ombudsman recently paid us a visit, and many injured young and not-so-young veterans spoke to him. One of the issues raised was related to communications with the Department of Veterans Affairs. It is difficult for somebody I would call a veteran of the First War, who is often alone at home, to reach a Veterans Affairs officer. In the past, Veterans Affairs officers made house calls, but that is no longer done. The human touch has been lost. I think it is important to mention this.
The administrative process involved in the review of requests for lump-sum payments or pensions takes so long, it seems never-ending. Going through the whole bureaucratic process is laborious and very frustrating.
I remember Senator Dallaire's visit to Valcartier a few years ago. One of the points that was raised was the fact that it is very difficult for someone with mental health issues to deal with all the committees, all the programs.
As Officer Commanding of the Quebec region, I feel that it is my duty to bring up these very important issues.
[English]
Senator Wallin: Thank you all for being here. We have had quite a bit of discussion and testimony, and there is growing concern all through the ranks, at all levels, about the lump-sum payment issue. There is no question about that — also on the job side, we have heard that.
I went out to talk to injured soldiers at Petawawa, and it is one of those Catch-22 situations because they do not want to go and work for the Department of Finance Canada or Canadian Heritage. They want to work at DND because that is what they love and know. Only so much uptake is possible.
Today I am troubled by the question of the housing. If you decide to rent on base, then none of this would apply in terms of renovation, even for those who are still in service.
Master Corporal Mitic: They do have a new policy. I think it is 2 per cent of all housing on base will now be made barrier-free. In my case, I lived in housing for the year that I was back in Petawawa. They just renovated a house to the minimum to allow me to get into it.
Senator Wallin: Was that on base or off?
Master Corporal Mitic: That was on base. Then they renovated another one in preparation for anyone else who might become injured.
On base, as Master Corporal Franklin pointed out, DND is doing its best and trying to get their heads around providing these services that they have not before. That is encouraging for us.
The housing, as far as the long term, when it comes to building or modifying an existing home, that is where you start to run into a bit of trouble. As I said, my experience was very difficult. My partner is a sergeant. She is a combat medic. That is how we met. She has seen probably more than Master Corporal Franklin and I put together, and she was brought to tears by this process. DND bases it on what VAC does — or they were. Now they have realized that they do not want to anymore, and they are moving on.
Senator Wallin: Any renovation or compensation for renovation off base then has to be in a house that you already own, is that correct?
Master Corporal Franklin: I just might add that I knew a guy who was paralyzed. DND got him a rental place. They renovated that rental place to his standards so that he could manage it, and it did not cost him money.
That being said, though, I bought my house — a tiny 1932 bungalow — and then we had to move to something nicer. We did not involve VAC in the process at all because we knew that it would just be a pain. We did it on our own. We used my own money to renovate and then submitted the bills and did it that way.
Senator Wallin: To whom did you submitted the bills?
Master Corporal Franklin: I submitted them to VAC.
Senator Wallin: Is that because you are under the old system or can anyone do that now?
Master Corporal Franklin: You are not supposed to do that. You are supposed to get three quotes from which they will pick the lowest of all of them and also pick the cheapest wood, et cetera. We said that, no, we would not go down that route, because you end up a year or two later still waiting for a house that is not built, juggling two mortgages, and that is where you start to get into some issues.
Senator Wallin: Is that where you are at, Master Corporal Mitic?
Master Corporal Mitic: We did not juggle two mortgages. We have been staying at private married quarters, PMQ, by the airport, which is barely accessible, while we wait. We have owned the house since last summer. As I said, this is not really to do with VAC. My only reason for bringing this up is that DND started by using the same process that VAC uses, along with a document they have, the CBI, which outlines certain aspects of this. They have started to move away from this because it makes it too difficult to deal with the members.
[Translation]
Maj. Lasalle: Your question is very timely. We are currently dealing with the case of Corporal Renaud, who is having a new condominium built in the Valcartier region.
I often get the impression that people are trying to rewrite the books on this subject. Corporal Renaud is still a member of the Canadian Forces. They are helping him adapt his residence. The type of set-up he needs involves an incredible amount of work and detail. Among other things, we have to consult an occupational therapist and get sound advice. Let us not forget that Corporal Renaud is 22 years old and is buying his first house. The stresses related to purchasing a home are many, and one of them is meeting the contractor's deadlines. The amount of work involved is tremendous.
When Corporal Renaud ceases to be a member of the Canadian Forces, will we be able to offer him the services he currently receives from the Department of Veterans Affairs, such as home adaptation? That is one of the questions I ask myself. Do we have an obligation to meet people's expectations?
[English]
Senator Wallin: Did you want to go ahead and join in, Corporal Renaud?
[Translation]
Cpl. Renaud: I chose to have a fully adapted condo built instead of buying a condo and then adapting it.
I asked a condo developer for help instead of moving in to an existing condo, and then having to redo the bathroom and adapt everything to my needs. I prefer to do things once rather than twice.
Financially speaking, I do not know what the future holds. I bought something I could afford, a $130,000 condo, which is a reasonable price considering my salary. Will I be able to keep it or will I have to sell it in five years' time? I have invested the money I was given to get where I am now. However, I also need security. Without security, I will perhaps have to sell my condo in five years.
The same example can be applied to a vehicle. If I buy a vehicle, will I have to sell it in five years because of money issues?
These are major concerns for me. We deal with life's problems, we deal with the treatments and we deal with all the laws. However, financially speaking, if times get tough, we should be able to get through them without having to worry.
We were ready to give everything up for our country. Should misfortune strike, I hope that our country would be willing to do the same for us.
[English]
Senator Wallin: Both of you, Corporal Renaud and Master Corporal Mitic, have suggested that you believe at some point down the road, whether that is two years or five years, and almost regardless of age, you will experience a deterioration in your condition, and that will involve a new cost. Is that correct?
Master Corporal Mitic: For myself, as Corporal Renaud was saying, I am trying to make my home barrier-free. Whether I am there until I am 40 years old, as I plan to be, or until I am 100 years old, at some point my body will stop accepting prosthetics. It is a matter of biology. It goes from the skeletal system and now it is on my muscular system. The prosthetic is not designed to do that. Over time, joints start to fail.
Corporal Renaud did not mention that he is a 22-year-old guy buying a condo. When he is 33, like I am, or 42, like Master Corporal Franklin, maybe he will want to get married and have a family, and then what will he do? This is something I wondered about when I first started this, and that is why we bought the home we did. We have one child and two dogs, and maybe we want to grow our family.
I already said that I do not want to go through this process again with anyone. Somehow, someway, I am hoping to become rich, whether I become a bestselling author, or I just wander the world for fame and fortune. I do not ever want to have to ask again because it is a humiliating process. You are completely powerless. I do not care who I deal with, whether it is the City of Ottawa or the government or whomever; it is a process I never want to go through again because it is not nice.
Senator Wallin: The phrase that has stuck in my mind is that you are "staying in." Master Corporal Franklin was right to make his decision for timing because he was sort of the last one out under the other system, crunched the numbers and decided to go. You guys are both saying, again from different age points, that you need to stay in.
Master Corporal Mitic: We do not need to, senator, but we have decided that, for the short term, we want to. I could have left right away as well, but now I am at three and a half years. I will start the process to get out because one disadvantage is that you are stuck at your rank level, so I cannot get a raise. On the outside, if I did take advantage of the job placement program or the university program or something where I could get education and training, then maybe I can increase my income.
Going back to the point you made, senator: The training is great, but these programs were available in some form or another from Veterans Affairs Canada under the old system as well. Also, the reason only 1 per cent of people are taking the $500 financial planning assistance is because if you walk into your local branch, the bank has plenty of advice for you on what to do with $250,000. That is what happened to me.
The Chair: Do not take it.
Master Corporal Mitic: Much of it got flushed.
The Chair: Major, whose option is it for an injured soldier to stay in the service? Is it the injured soldier's option? Is it his or her decision as to when to leave or does someone else decide, in the end?
[Translation]
Maj. Lasalle: This is not for the soldier to decide. It all depends on the person's medical condition and on the employment limitations. The issue is related to universality of service. That principle was already explained to you. In the Canadian Forces, everyone wearing the uniform must meet a minimum standard referred to as universality of service. The decision is usually made once an accurate diagnosis has been given.
Corporal Renaud is still in recovery. The final diagnosis has not been given yet. We cannot make a decision about an individual's future until the final diagnosis is in.
[English]
Senator Dallaire: There are so many issues, but one of the first issues that I want to question you on is how much information you actually have explained to you in detail by a person from Veterans Affairs Canada, and to what extent that is followed up on with respect to the whole set of programs?
In listening to you, you are unaware of many of the programs. No one has mentioned the spousal program. If you cannot work or we cannot retrain you, then they are supposed to shift it to the spouse, if you have a spouse, and then retrain the spouse so that hopefully they can then bring money in. I am not accusing you; rather, I am really looking at whether or not Veterans Affairs Canada is selling its product to you during the years you are serving.
One of the reasons we moved them into the bases — we moved the joint capabilities, and since 1998 we brought Veterans Affairs Canada and DND together here in Ottawa — was to get that information to you.
Master Corporal Mitic: In my experience, that has not been the case. I have asked several representatives certain questions. This is going back to when I first got injured because I have had minimal contact for about a year. You get different answers from each person. I received an email last night that I was unable to print from a friend and comrade who has moved on due to issues. He stated that exact problem. He said that he cannot find the answers he needs when he asks the question. If he asks someone else, he gets a different answer and is told that the other person from the same department is wrong.
We have little stories and tidbits about how a VAC representative is unwilling to explain things. They say, "Don't worry, I will do the paperwork. Thanks for making me do more paperwork, by the way, by asking for this." That is an answer someone actually received. For whatever reason, they are unwilling to explain things in detail.
Senator Dallaire: It is something we have raised, whether the VAC people have been trained, refocused and reoriented to the new charter and are actually doing what they are supposed to be doing. You all have VAC files. They are supposed to get that service, and it is not working. There has not been enough training.
You get a lump sum. Having the monthly payment permits you to go to a bank and tell them that you qualify for a mortgage because you have a certain amount of guaranteed income. The guy with the lump sum does not have that and cannot get a mortgage because he does not have a guaranteed income. He is injured and so on. The government is retraining him, so for a period of time he might receive an amount of money, but after that there is no guarantee. It is very difficult to get that training.
DND has massively engaged funds for their injured, to the extent that it is now 62 per cent of their budget. They are very worried about whether they can sustain it. Universality of service could become more difficult for you as they squeeze the system.
While you are in service, do you feel that DND is doing the job that you think it should be doing for its veterans and that your impression is that the minute you drop out of DND, you will fall into a chasm that is not only different but may not have that same sense of duty toward you? Do you actually feel that?
Master Corporal Franklin: I was actually talking to General Hillier about the same subject in 2007. He said that the reason they created the DND programs that we have is because they do not trust VAC. That comes from as high as you go. When he says that, it is pretty clear to everyone.
Senator Dallaire: It has not changed.
In 1998, as ADM, we put $100,000 aside to modify PMQs because we could not get authority from Treasury Board to do that. People said that that was VAC's problem or DND's, and so on. Now there is a different system, but it still has room to go.
In the context of your future, you are saying that you are looking for security and not dependency.
Master Corporal Franklin: Correct.
Senator Dallaire: You are right because the philosophy of the New Veterans Charter says that they do not want to create dependency; they want to give a sense of security that you can still be part of the general population. Do you feel that that is what the New Veterans Charter will be giving you?
Master Corporal Franklin: I know for myself that if I did not have the monthly pension, I would not be able to do the jobs I do now, which is work with my charity and give speeches across the country. I would have to then get a real job and do that.
My quality of life would be less. I would be doing stuff that I do not want to do. I would probably have stayed in the military for as long as I could have.
Even being 100 per cent disabled, with no promotions, no postings, no courses, that would be better. I would be making $65,000 instead of working as Joe Blow at TD Canada Trust. For me, it is a big deal.
Master Corporal Mitic: I have read that part of their whole focus and goal was to create independence. That is a good philosophy, just the same as the whole of the market will never crash. I could go a university and get a master's degree, but maybe I am not able to do any job that pays over $30,000 or $40,000 a year because I do not have the aptitude. If I regress and have a mental breakdown or my body fails me, then what? Where will my income come from at that point?
My new employer, let us say for example General Electric, will not understand that I need three weeks off to let my legs heal. They are not here to give me time off. That does not sound like independence to me. Now we have to worry about our income.
They claim all these other programs give you things, but you come back to them again and again for such things as the clothing allowance, for VIP, for all this stuff where, if I had a lump-sum similar to Master Corporal Franklin, I would not bother because I would have the monthly income I could rely on to do things such as modify my clothing and shovel my driveway and put that to use to be independent and do things on my own.
[Translation]
Senator Dallaire: Corporal Renaud, do you share the same opinion as our other witnesses? Do you also feel that veterans are in a black hole, and are you afraid of ending up there yourself? Have you also not received all the information you need to ensure your future security?
Cpl. Renaud: Senator Dallaire, my fellow witnesses have said everything so well that, if I were to speak, it would be like cutting and pasting their words.
[English]
Senator Day: I just want to confirm that the lump-sum payment has been described to you as being for pain and suffering, and pain and suffering only. It is not for loss of income.
Master Corporal Franklin: Correct. It is not for the injury; it is for pain and suffering, and future pain and suffering, which apparently is valued at $250,000.
Senator Day: SISIP Financial Services, which is your insurance that all soldiers have, will pay up to 75 per cent of salary up to age 65 or whatever salary you might have had at the time of the injury. VAC tells us that there is also a loss of income monthly pension that you are able to obtain. Is that the one that you talked about that was $1,600?
Master Corporal Franklin: No, that is a different one. This one is the Permanent Impairment Allowance, PIA, which goes from $536 to $1,600, and is to assist veterans assuming long-term monthly earnings loss with a retirement at age 65, they receive a lump-sum payment equal to 2 per cent of their lifetime monthly earnings loss payments, whatever that means.
Senator Day: Do you have any experience with it?
Master Corporal Franklin: I do not even understand that sentence. No.
Senator Day: Each base is supposed to have an integrated support unit. Do you have access to that and who is the VAC person who is there?
Master Corporal Franklin: They have people there. They are available. Recently, I went and saw mine. The problem is that there are eight pages of stuff that they apparently do. You can go there and beg for money to do certain things, but that is the first time I have heard of the spousal program, and I have been involved in casualty support for years.
Senator Day: That is very instructive. That is very helpful.
[Translation]
Maj. Lasalle: The first IPSC opened in Valcartier in October 2007. I want to point out that additional IPSCs are now being established. So, there is a tremendous amount of work to do, including solidifying our relations with all our partners. Among them is Veterans Affairs, which is an important partner.
A single support centre where soldiers can have access to all the partners is without a doubt the best way to provide information about all the programs offered, but it is an extremely challenging process. We are talking about infrastructure costs, meetings, various programs about which people are not informed. We have to prepare information sessions and be able to reach soldiers in order to inform them about the various programs offered. That is quite a challenge.
Senator Day: Is it your responsibility to help the injured or to manage the existing programs?
Maj. Lasalle: My responsibility is to help injured soldiers, but it is also to inform all soldiers, including those in the chain of command, of the importance of some of our assistance programs. We are currently seeing a build-up of troops preparing to deploy to Afghanistan.
We have to inform people about the importance of some programs, like form CF98, the reports on injuries, and so forth. These are things we need to stress.
As I often give presentations, I have noticed that young people are so sure that nothing bad will happen to them that the information goes in one ear and out the other. I have observed this attitude on several occasions.
[English]
The Chair: I must interrupt. We have come to the conclusion of the meeting as prescribed by the rules.
Gentlemen, I want to thank you very much. Needless to say, there are no words to say to thank you for your service to the country and for what you have given up. We are very grateful for your time here today, which has been most useful to us. Thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.) |
